Chapter Two

~Chapter Two~

The Sun Devoured

“Alright. Here’s the plan,” Netya whispered. We were once more on our way to the forest, walking slowly over the fields as my friend filled me in on the details of our quest. “I don’t think Thalon suspects anything. I asked him if he would come with me to the forest, and he said he would meet me on the eaves. He thinks he’s going to be giving us another lesson with our swords–”

“The swords no one but he knows we have,” I added.

“Yes, those. We can’t help it if we want to learn! They should teach girls if they want to be taught! Honestly. It’s their fault we have to sneak away and get Thalon to teach us. At least we know he shan’t tell on that,” Netya said. “Anyway. He thinks he’s going to be giving us another lesson, but in reality, we will be kidnapping him. Hopefully he shan’t suspect anything until it’s too late.”

I nodded. “Sounds good. But Netya, what if he does manage to escape us? We aren’t strong enough to hold him down ourselves…”

“That’s what I brought this for,” Netya said, holding up a small length of rope.

I laughed. “Oh, this will be interesting. Come on, let’s go. I think he’s already waiting for us!”

Netya tucked the rope carefully out of sight, and we ran the last yards to the forest. Sure enough, Thalon stood leaning against a tree, bow strung at his back, watching us approach. When we ran up to him, breathless and giggling, he straightened up and cast a suspicious eye over our laughing faces.

“You two look up to no good. How does this lovely afternoon find you?” he asked, bowing in mock humility.

We laughed, and Netya grabbed his sleeve, tugging him along with us into the woods. “Did you bring them? The swords?” she asked. “Oh Thalon, you’re so good to teach us. I’m sure we’d go stir crazy if we couldn’t come out here and learn to fight and defend.”

“I don’t know about ‘good,’” Thalon replied, extracting his arm from Netya’s enthusiastic grasp. “I don’t like to think what would happen to you if anyone found out. You’d both be in a world of trouble and so would I. But…I think you should learn to wield a sword if you want to. There may not always be a man around to protect you. Just because a lady should not use a sword, it does not mean she may not die by one. Not that that is a pleasant thought,” he said, and smiled at Netya. “Yes, I brought your swords. Can’t have a proper lesson without them, now, can we? You can only go so far with sticks. Even if they are only practice blades, they are the proper weight. Here,” Thalon handed Netya one of the small swords he held concealed under his cloak, and passed the other to me.

I took it gently, running my finger across the hilt and reading the words that were inscribed in a spiral from the hand guard to the pommel aloud. “‘Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.’ It’s inscribed on every sword of the Castle Guard. Every man must swear to uphold this. I don’t understand why that cannot be the pledge of every woman as well.”

Thalon reached out and took the sword from my hands and held it up so the sun filtering through the leaves made it gleam in the dusk of the forest. “See this?” he said, pointing to the dulled edges of the practice blade. “On a real sword, they are sharp. They wound, and are stained with blood. They rob the life from a man’s heart, the breath from his lungs, the dreams from his head. They kill. And that is not the job of a woman,” he said gently, handing the blade back to me. “I will teach you to fight with a sword. Someday, you may need to know how to defend yourself, maybe your children. You can make this verse your pledge, Alasse. But a woman does not uphold it in battle. She honors her pledge with her open heart, ready hands, and gentle words. When you have learned, not to fight, but to love others with all the compassion in your heart, then you will be an opponent no enemy can overthrow.”

I nodded slowly. “I suppose. But I still can’t help but wish…”

Thalon smiled. “I know. But you will realize eventually that it takes the greater strength to love and to mend, not to hate and to kill. That is one thing I can’t teach you.”

I laughed and grabbed his hand, pulling him faster again through the trees. “At last! Thalon has found something he cannot teach us!” I called to Netya where she stood waiting impatiently.

“Indeed? I’m all astonishment. It cannot be possible!” she joined in, taking Thalon’s other hand and pushing him into the clearing. “However, you can teach us this,” she said, brandishing her sword. In a whisper to me, she added, “Don’t forget the plan!”

I giggled, and tightened my grip on my sword hilt. “Of course! Come on, Thalon, teach us something new! Something pretty!”

“Alasse…” Thalon sighed in mock exasperation, “I do wish you would stop referring to my highly calculated exercises of deadly precision, speed, and accuracy as pretty.”

I smiled mischievously, and struck a fighting pose. Thalon shook his head in amusement, dropped his bow on the grass and carefully took off his cloak and quiver of bright-tipped arrows, and drew his own sword. “Alright. Remember the stance we were working on last time? Now I’m going to teach you how to go from that into the sequence we learned the other day. Netya, you stand here…”

As Thalon talked us through the nuances of the exercise, explaining each new movement carefully and thoroughly, I traded glances with Netya. We both grinned. Thalon, finishing his explanation and looking up to find us not paying him the least attention, sheathed his sword and glanced from Netya to me and back again. “Alright, you two. You obviously aren’t listening…what’s this all abou–”

Netya shouted, “Now, Alasse!” She grabbed one of his arms and I took the other, pulling him to the ground. Laughing, we strove to hold him down as he struggled to escape, caught off-guard by our sudden onslaught.

“Hey! Alasse– Netya, what–“ Thalon spluttered as Netya began attempting to tie his hands with her rope. “You’re tying me up? You two little girls are tying up the son of the Captain of the Guard. After ambushing him on no provocation. Not on my life, you aren’t!” He grinned back at us and twisted his hands free, rolling easily aside and breaking our grasps on his arms. Jumping up, he grabbed his bow and slung his quiver over his shoulder. “Now. Come and catch me if you can!” He called out, and dashed laughing into the trees.

“…Now what? This was your idea, Netya,” I said watching Thalon’s retreating back.

“Yes, but you encouraged me! Come on, let’s go catch him!” she answered, leaping up and sprinting after him. I followed, leaving the practice swords and Thalon’s cloak on the grass where they had fallen.

“Thalon! Wait for us! Where’d he go?” Netya stopped running and collapsed against a tree, breathing hard.

I caught up to her and stood panting. “I don’t know. He must have gone somewhere…we’ve got to catch him,” I said.

“You’re right, Alasse. I did go somewhere. However, there your correctness ends, because you shan’t catch me unless I let you. Which I won’t until I know the exact reason you were attempting to tie me up in the first place.”

We both jumped and looked up. Thalon sat on a branch above our heads, in the very tree we leaned against. Laughing at our surprise, he dropped lightly to the ground before us, stepping out of our reach, and crossed his arms. “Now. Suppose you tell me what’s going on?”

“It’s Netya’s fault!” I said quickly, before she could protest.

“Why am I not surprised. However, I am sure Netya will tell me that it’s really your fault for encouraging her. Am I right?” Thalon smiled at Netya.

“Exactly,” she answered. “Now we are going to catch you, so hold still.”

“Sorry, my lady, but there you are wrong again. I haven’t decided to let you yet.” Thalon turned and began to run again, but his bow, catching on a low-hanging branch, slowed him down. I sprang after him, and we soon had him caught again, each holding tight to one of his arms and laughing. He struggled and tried to twist out of our grasp again, but this time we could not be shaken off. Finally, Thalon stopped struggling, and gave a sigh of defeat. “Alright. Let it be known that the son of the Captain of the Guard has been conquered and successfully captured by two mere girls. So. What is it you wanted to capture me for, anyway?”

I traded a suspicious glance with Netya. “Are you sure you shan’t try and run again, Thalon?” I asked.

“Positive. Now, if you would be so kind…impart.” He smiled innocently.

“Alright,” Netya began, “We wanted to take you captive and hold you for ransom.”

Thalon choked, and burst into a peal of astonished laughter. “Ransom? Me? You really are hopeless…whatever for?”

“Because you foiled our last attempts at a perfectly harmless plot!” I responded, indignant.

Thalon laughed again. “Alright. So I foiled your plans to join the Castle Guard and get yourself killed, or some such equally impossible task. And you are holding me for ransom now?”

I nodded and smiled. “Yep. You got it.”

“Ah. In that case…I think I’ve decided to run again,” he said, ducking under our hands and escaping into the woods for the third time.

Thalon led Netya and I on a wild chase through the trees, always just barely within our sight. As we traveled deeper into the woods, following the path of a wide, dry ravine, Thalon stopped suddenly, falling against a tree. We caught up to him at last and collapsed at his feet. “Oh Thalon, look how far we’ve come!” I panted, looking around. “I don’t think I’ve ever been so far into the forest! Look at–” I broke off suddenly as Thalon ducked to the ground between Netya and I, grabbing our shoulders.

I took one look at his face and knew something was wrong. “Thalon? What is it? What–”

Thalon spoke softly through clenched teeth. “Hush. Don’t speak. Don’t move. We need to get out of here. Now. I should not have let you come so far.”

Netya, voice suddenly tight with fear, asked in a whisper, “Why? What…Thalon, what is it?”

Thalon pointed through the trees to an outcropping of stone that ran along the edge of the ravine, creating a nearly sheer cliff face pocketed with rifts and channels in the stone. I gasped, and grabbed Netya’s hand as I realized what Thalon was pointing out. At the top of the ridge of stone stood a single man, masked and cloaked with black, a small, powerful bow in his hands. On the breast of his tunic, a small coat of arms was emblazoned. I could not see it well from where I sat, but I knew what it was. A black lynx on a crimson field, devouring the sun. I had seen it before. We all had.

“One of Pethnor’s men,” Netya whispered, voice wavering as she spoke the name. “But…but why? I thought…Thalon, Pethnor is in the deepest dungeon in the land, and his men are all run out of the kingdom. …Aren’t they?”

Thalon shook his head. “Later. We need to get out of here. He hasn’t noticed us…yet. Alasse, Netya, go back the way we came. Carefully. There may be more men around. I will catch up to you soon. Go now!” he whispered urgently, taking up his bow and nocking an arrow to the string.

I nodded, and pulled Netya up. “Come on.”

Carefully, we began retracing our steps back down the ravine. The laughter, the sunshine, the carefree excitement of our mad dash through the forest was forgotten. We both knew our lives might hang in the balance. Netya went in front of me, picking her way softly over the jumbled stones that lined the further side of the ravine, which sloped gently up to the level of the rest of the forest. I came behind, taking care to follow her movements exactly. One misstep, and we might dislodge a stone to fall avalanching into the wide gully. The man, or men, if there were more of them near, would be upon us in a moment at such a noise.

I looked back over my shoulder and saw Thalon, camouflaged by his green Castle Guard tunic, standing tense behind a tree, eyes scanning the ridge. As I watched, he turned to follow us, keeping his bow ready in his hands. I turned back and took another step forward towards freedom, but my foot slipped on a small stone, and I fell. The stone slid bouncing down the slope, bringing others in its wake. Netya gasped. A harsh cry rose from the ridge opposite us, and I could see the strange man in my mind, turning his masked face in my direction. I pulled myself up, stumbling on the rocks, and looked back. The man had disappeared from the ridge and Thalon had nearly reached the spot where Netya and I stood. He called out, motioning us onward. “Hurry! Don’t stop, he may cut us off. Just go, go!”

Nodding in terrified comprehension, we scrambled to the top of the ravine, stones skidding down the slope behind us.

Suddenly, a new sound reached my ears, whistling and quick. Time seemed to freeze as my frightened mind registered what it had heard. It was a sound I had heard often enough before, back in the ranges behind the castle armory. There it had seemed friendly and brave, like a whisper of valor coming down through the timeless ages that came before. Now, the sound was filled with cruelty and hate, a spiteful malice that delighted in the destruction of peace. It filled my heart with a feeling akin to despair. It was the whistling of arrows.

Suddenly Thalon was beside me, pulling Netya behind a tree and pushing me toward another. Another arrow skipped on the ground at my feet and I pulled away, blind in terror. I heard his voice through a roaring wind tunnel in my ears. “Alasse! Alasse, no!” The meaning of the words did not register in my mind. I had room only for one thought. I must get back!

Stumbling, I shook Thalon’s hand off my arm and tried to run. An arrow sped through the air by my face, and I ducked involuntarily. Glancing back for a moment, I saw Thalon, bow discarded on the ground, place himself between me and the source of the arrows. He grabbed me forcibly by the arms and I struggled. Suddenly, I felt his body lurch and his grip slackened. I twisted away and he fell, face down on the leaves. Netya screamed, and I stepped back in shock and horror. The cloud of fear lifted for a moment from my head, and my eyes cleared. What I saw caused me to fall stumbling to my knees beside Thalon.

A black-feathered arrow, shaft cruelly thin, sprouted from his back. Blood seeped to stain his tunic where it lodged, quivering, below his shoulder. A brazen horn call echoed through the woods.

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86 Comments Add yours

  1. AnnaEstelle says:

    Yes. I’m aware of the LotR/Eowyn moment in there. What can I say. I read too much Tolkien. Don’t hate me. I’ll edit it out later. When I have time. And a life. =D
    …basically, from this point out, it gets lamer and lamer…until chapters 9/10. THOSE ones rock. =D

    Like

  2. Emily says:

    Total cliff-hanger. :) Thalon is annoying.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      O________________O
      I hereby disown my sister.
      HE IS NOT!!! …well. If he IS, it’s not his fault. It’s mine *ahem* Hehehe. Hmphhhhh. -_- He is notttttttt. -_-*glares*

      Like

      1. Netya Taethiel ;) says:

        Haha… careful there Emily.

        Like

  3. Netya Taethiel ;) says:

    ‘“It’s Netya’s fault!” I said quickly, before she could protest.

    “Why am I not surprised.”‘

    -____________- Why IS he not surprised? Hmph. *glares*

    Interesting chapter. =P I am very much enjoying reading this. ;)

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      *evil grin* Mwahaha…O_O I mean, oh sorry. That must have sneaked in there when I wasn’t looking. O_O Don’t hurt me. O_O
      *coughs* I dunno. You tell me. Why IS he not surprised? *grins* =P =P

      Like

  4. eruthaedur says:

    …..what makes Thalon annoying? I’m curious.

    and btw, you did fine on the chapter Anna, looks good=)

    Like

  5. ashleytm says:

    lol *claps* Lovely job, Anna =D

    Like

  6. The Eating Undead says:

    I agree with my big sis *hugs*
    Thalon is quite annoying. And the LoTR part…. not cool. I hope you take it out.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      …Ok…you seriously gross me out…O__o

      -_-
      -____-
      I know. Lol =P It will be edited…eventually. *evil laughter*
      It’s not my fault, though! It ate my brain! Honest! …wait. Your username…O____O Is my novel commenting on itself?
      …-___________-

      Like

  7. eruthaedur says:

    I’m just curious to know why you think Thalon’s annoying. I read it and didn’t get that impression…=P what’s up?

    Like

  8. Emily says:

    I was mostly just saying that to bug Anna. :) But I do find him rather know-it-all, in a “I’m going to heroically protect the wimpy girls while properly reminding them of their right place in society” sort of way.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      -_- Yea. Figures. I love you too. -___- =P

      …*cough*…Oh yea. I forgot about your…*ahem* views on that subject. …*changes subject hurriedly* How’s the weather? O_O
      Hehehehehe =P =P =P
      *flees before WWIII breaks out on my blog* O_O I didn’t say anything! I’m innocent! …really…I am. Somehow.

      Like

  9. Mrs. Darwins White Sphere says:

    Hmm… i agree with Emily but i take it a bit farther.
    Thalon is a stuck up, know it all. He thinks he’s the coolest guy out there in his suave manner on everything. And he’s so good and perfect and knows how to handle everything, which makes him stuck up.
    Thats what i get from the character.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      Hahaha…oh, just you wait. =P I make up for it…*ahemmmm* XD *facepalm* …=P
      …besides. Guys that are good and perfect and know how to handle everything are SO much nicer…*grins* Less decision-making for me. *cough* =P
      =)

      Like

      1. AnnaEstelle says:

        …*mutters about people insulting my characters* -_- very nice, precious, very nice, yes, very nice! -_-
        …O_O

        Like

  10. eruthaedur says:

    ROFL!! Anna you crack me up=P

    And Emily, just saying, but in the setting that Anna has her story, the girls were, one, not wimpy but more naive. You can be the strongest man alive and not know how to do something or which way to go in a decision. Just because Thalon trained to do all of the stuff that was in this story does not make him stuck up. That is what the guys DID with their lives. They learned the forest, they practiced with arms, they worked, they learned to lead, they learned to protect…the girls would look upon them as naive if they entered a kitchen and tried to prepare a formal meal..I think you might be going at this from a skewed perspective. this is not modern day, it is set back in time. Give the characters a break.
    And just so you know for guys in general who have the passion to protect, we do NOT protect because we think girls are weak or wimpy. We protect because we respect and care. It is a way we can show our respect and our honor to that gender through the particular strengths that we are blessed with.

    Like

    1. eruthaedur says:

      in other words. just because someone is competent, and you or someone else is not, does NOT mean that that individual is stuck up or a know it all. that just means that you have envy problems or the wrong perspective or a selfish nature;)

      Like

      1. AnnaEstelle says:

        *cough* *chokes* *smothers laughter* Buuuuurnnnnn, Em…hehehehehehe =D =P =P =P

        Like

  11. eruthaedur says:

    O___O ..it wasn’t meant to burn=P …just the truth…

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      Hehehehehehehe…=D *giggles* =P =P =P You are epic. XD

      Em says “Tell Josiah that I stand by my original statement and that unfortunately I have no time to make a rebuttal AND I was mostly saying that to make you [i.e., me =P] mad.”
      …-_- Hehehe =P

      Like

  12. eruthaedur says:

    oh brother. tell her she needn’t bother with a rebuttal =P SHE doesn’t know the guys perspective so any rebuttal she might give is biased and from the wrong perspective…that is of how SHE interprets guys attempts at respect as stuck up and know it all. *cough*
    tell her to have fun standing by her original statement, but that if she will bend her statement for the cause of comfort, I WILL get her a chair so she can SIT by her original statement more comfortably. ;) …*cough* not in a know it all or stuck up manner of course…simply out of respect. -___-

    Like

    1. Emily says:

      Again, please see my comment below. I like respectful, kind people, whether they are male or female. I do not like stuck-up know-it-alls, whether they are male or female.

      And in all respect, you are writing from a male perspective and thus are likewise “biased.”

      Like

      1. AnnaEstelle says:

        *watches my blog dissolve into a heated debating ground for two parties that are both equally biased and thus not able to accurately debate their sides anyway* …*ahem* …Poor Eru. *cough* I’m so glad I’m not you right now…O_O Hehehehehe =P Goodness. *grins* *calls Thalon to come stand by with his bow and break it up when the fist-fights start* *giggles* =P =P
        You guys…are really kind of amusing me right now. =P XD

        Like

  13. Emily says:

    Ok, I was not meaning to start a debate on my dear sister’s blog. :) One thing, and then I really am done.
    Josiah’s perspective: “It is a way we can show our respect and our honor to that gender through the particular strengths that we are blessed with.”

    Emily’s perspective: I have nothing against respect and honor…..BUT if respect and honor are being given, I want them to be given because I am HUMAN, not because I belong to a particular gender. That is secondary. In my opinion.

    Like

  14. Luke says:

    So Josiah… where did you find the time machine?

    Like

  15. Luke says:

    Bear in mind Emily’s a feminist.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      …*coughs*…*grins* Good luck, Eru. =P =P =P

      Like

      1. Luke says:

        Your gunna need it.

        Like

    2. Emily says:

      Luke, if you actually knew any real feminists you would soon see that I am most certainly not. :)

      Like

      1. AnnaEstelle says:

        …O_O I don’t want to meet any. O___O
        Hehehe =P

        Like

  16. eruthaedur says:

    you’ve got similar views to several feminists, but you’re right…not completely full-blown. And sorry DLF =P didn’t mean to start a debate on your wall..=P

    Besides. I wasn’t debating. I was explaining=P =P hehe
    @Luke, thanks but I don’t need luck to explain reality from the guys perspective lol =P
    @Emily, of course I’m biased=) I am a guy, defending the guys position which you were calling stuck up and know it all=P I think possibly that if you change your perspective a little things might clear up?
    Good grief, of course we respect you because you’re human. lol..but that is not the point. there are humans that deserve NO respect. It isn’t that we are demeaning, or showing favoritism to the feminine gender. neither is more valuable than the other as God created them both equal in value, but NOT equal in position. Just because God is the Father doesn’t mean He is more valuable than Jesus the Son, and yet Jesus submitted Himself in EVERYTHING to His Father to the point of dying and being shunned by Him. Anybody who value’s human life will respect it and honor it for what it is. but this means nothing out of the ordinary. It is those who desire to actually go beyond the normal…who are proactive, who are dedicated to loving others and helping them….what happens then? They use their strengths to go beyond the middle-of-the-road-ers. They passionately protect, care, provide, assist, (fill in the blank). And they get labeled and shunned and treated as if they are doing the wrong thing ….why?
    “1 Peter3:7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. ”
    Alright this is a common passage dealing with husbands and wives, but as an aspiring husband to be, I think it applies somewhat now. If we waited to practice the character we will need when we are married TILL we get married, how well do you think it would carry on? Unless it is ingrained into your character through practice and discipline, it won’t last. I want my wife to be the best treated person on the planet, best protected, well provided for, well cared for, well lead, well looked after, etc. If that is my goal, should I not start practicing now? those characteristics that will need to be completely ingrained in my character later? I don’t want my prayers hindered. And to be honest, even if you aren’t married or aren’t planning on getting married. We were created to glorify God by obeying Him and reflecting His image, correct? Well look at all of creation. There is the trinity. Father Son and Spirit, husband wife and God, husband, wife, and kids, God, state, citizens, etc etc..the roles are endless. In the beginning God created man in the image of God to be the head and to lead. then God created women out of man as a help meet for man. the order is important, NOT in determining the VALUE of the individual, but in determining the ORDER and roles of the individual. …I guess I don’t see why when guys respect women for who God created them to be, and use their strengths to lead, protect, care, and assist them…why women should feel offended. Why are they disgruntled when men treat them extra special? I don’t know what the race of guys think…but, I think that they ARE extra special. God said when He made the race of humankind that they were VERY good compared to everything else which was only good. I don’t know of too many guys who complain when women support them, serve them, love them, and respect them….why is it different? I don’t understand. perhaps you could explain.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      …O_____________O
      *blown away by hugeness of post*
      …O_______________________O
      =P

      Like

    2. Thoughtenchanted says:

      Ok….hmmm….I should be writing a paper right now, but what the heck. :)

      “I am a guy, defending the guys position which you were calling stuck up and know it all=P”
      Actually, I wasn’t saying anything about the “guys position” as a whole. I was simply saying in jest that I, personally, happen to find the character of Thalon annoying. I find lots of literary characters annoying, and Thalon is one of them. :) Well, based on the first chapter, anyway. He can certainly redeem himself.

      Ok. I will re-iterate. I have NO PROBLEM with chivalrous, respectful guys. I’m going to college at Hillsdale, for goodness’ sakes, which is probably one of the most chivalrous spots on the planet. I appreciate courtesy from gentlemen, and I try to provide it in return. If I see a guy coming balancing a stack of books and holding a cup of coffee, I will certainly get up and go hold the door for him. I would hope he would do the same for me. For the record, I actually am friends with many more guys than girls here, mostly because I find I simply have more in common with the former.

      “God created them both equal in value, but NOT equal in position.”

      Here is where we part. I simply cannot hold to the Christian view of women as second to men position-wise, even if they are considered equal in value. Does that make me an evil person? Probably. :) But I cannot apologize, just as you cannot apologize for what you believe. Here is some of what I have problems with:

      1 Corinthians 11:7 – 9 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

      1 Corinthians 14:34 – 35 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

      1 Timothy 2:11 – 15 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

      Yes, I know I am neglecting all the verses which talk about husbands loving and respecting their wives, but the above verses still stand. I should also point out, the above sentiments are not restricted to Christianity. In most Western cultures until fairly recently, women have been treated as secondary to men in authority, and denied education, opportunity, and expression as a result. I pick up the Western Heritage Reader Hillsdale uses–and every single author we study is male. From the perspective of a female, I find something unsettling and wrong with that.

      “the order is important, NOT in determining the VALUE of the individual, but in determining the ORDER and roles of the individual.”
      Ah yes, gender roles….As far as I am concerned the “role” of someone as determined by gender is completely secondary to who they are personally and intellectually. This is an issue that I come up against here, unfortunately. I had a young man whom I greatly respected come up and tell me that I should not be considering graduate school because I am female, and my place is in the home having babies. He, meanwhile, is free to get a PhD and teach at the college level because of the shape of his body. And I look at us–we both are overwhelmingly excited about knowledge, we both have a passion and calling to teach, we both struggle through the same courses and love them anyway. So what is the difference between us? Are not our souls and intellects the most real part of us, and not our bodies? And when two souls share the same drive, why shouldn’t they BOTH be given an opportunity to fulfill it? Gender, in my opinion, is secondary to ability and passion when determining one’s “role.”

      “…I guess I don’t see why when guys respect women for who God created them to be, and use their strengths to lead, protect, care, and assist them…why women should feel offended. ”
      I am not at all offended by respect. In fact, I wouldn’t say that I am *offended* at all by a man trying to live out the standards he feels called to and believes in. I applaud anyone with the guts to do so. So go for it, Josiah. :) I would only ask you to realize that maybe we don’t all need protecting and leading–and that maybe gender is not the most important thing when determining one’s “role.” And finally, I ask that you consider the idea that maybe some of us need protecting and leading because society, religion, or custom has told us that is who we must be.

      Like

      1. AnnaEstelle says:

        O_______________________________O
        *doubly blown away*
        =P
        ” I had a young man whom I greatly respected come up and tell me that I should not be considering graduate school because I am female, and my place is in the home having babies.”
        …you also have to keep in mind, as Mommy said, that he’s catholic…=P

        Like

      2. eruthaedur says:

        I’m curious..what would Thalon have to do in your opinion to redeem himself? has he done something wrong? or just something that you don’t like? Just curious;)

        …So I am confused here..you posted those verses…and it looks like you disagree with them? is that what you mean? or at least parts of them? And if you do.. how do you reconcile that? I mean, how can you believe the word of God and yet not believe some of it..because if some of it isn’t correct..than how can the whole thing be infallible?

        and..I have a question, why was woman created? why did God create woman?

        I don’t have a problem with single people and people who don’t feel called to marry. I think that is a gift..and certainly a gift I don’t have=P but..I do not think all people are called to marry. that wasn’t what I was saying. But, what do you think of the authority structure all throughout the Bible? ..where all through the beginning of time it was the heads of family’s, the men, who were called to lead? why was it Moses who was called to lead them out of Egypt instead of his wife, or Abraham who was called to lead his family to a new land instead of Sarah? I am curious what you think about this….all throughout Genesis and Exodus..and in fact the Pentateuch, God was teaching His people how they should act and what they were supposed to do….and..it seems like you don’t agree with that order, and I’m just curious where your biblical backing is for your position besides your own ambition and desires? (not dissing either of them. just saying=) I couldn’t think of another word and so I just put it in)

        And finally, ..I am wondering whether you think you do not need leadership or protection..just curious=) have fun with your paper;)

        Like

  17. Luke says:

    Josiah. You have been owned. Give up before you are pwned. (:

    Like

  18. eruthaedur says:

    ..Luke lol I was not owned by her post. except in length lol. I think Emily has more spare time than I do..=P

    Like

  19. Luke says:

    *rolls eyes* You were owned… and your about to be pwned.
    *pats big sis on the back* Get ’em tiger!

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      I love how luke is obviously in support of Emily but is doing nothing to help back her up… XD hehehehehe =P
      …but that’s ok…since I’m in support of Josiah and doing nothing to help back HIM up…*cough* =P

      Like

    2. AnnaEstelle says:

      …and I dunno how Em will like being called a tiger…btw…O_O

      Like

    3. Thoughtenchanted says:

      Yeah, wow, Luke, I thought you were totally against me in, like, everything. :)

      Like

    4. eruthaedur says:

      lol Luke..I still don’t see how I’m getting pwned..I’m not owning Emily, and I don’t see that she’s pwning me either. I do appreciate your enthusiasm. good job=P

      Like

  20. Thoughtenchanted says:

    “I’m curious..what would Thalon have to do in your opinion to redeem himself? has he done something wrong? or just something that you don’t like? Just curious;)”

    Well, as of the first two chapters he seems a little one-sided, a little too “perfect” (which is to be expected, I suppose, given that we are not very far in the book at all). I would just like to see some more character development, which it seems as if Anna is setting things up nicely for. I like heroes that are not just ALL good and wonderful, but that have some flaws too. It makes things more interesting. I mean, even Aragorn had issues. :)

    “it looks like you disagree with them? is that what you mean?”
    I absolutely disagree with them!

    “because if some of it isn’t correct..than how can the whole thing be infallible?”
    If I knew the answer to that question, I would be thrilled. Unlike some, I am not at all dead certain about things. What I *don’t know* about life is far greater than that which I do.

    “and..I have a question, why was woman created? why did God create woman?”
    Again, if God created women to be subservient to men, then I cannot believe it.

    “..where all through the beginning of time it was the heads of family’s, the men, who were called to lead?”
    Perhaps this is because pre-20th century society *as a whole* was dominated by men. Women, in most cases, were considered unable to take the sorts of leadership roles you describe. I am entirely grateful to be alive today, when such a view-point is starting to change.

    “And finally, ..I am wondering whether you think you do not need leadership or protection..just curious=)”
    I need protection from the laws of this country. I need a government that upholds my natural rights. If I was being robbed on the street, I should hope someone would come to my aid. I need leadership from parents, at the moment anyway. I need guidance from, and loving relationships with, friends, and maybe a spouse some day. These are things that all fallible human beings need, both men and women.
    What I DO NOT need is a society or worldview that tells me that I, because of my gender, innately require the protection and leadership of the opposite sex. That just doesn’t cut it.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      How dare you say Aragorn has issues??? …at least, you don’t have to point it out…-_- =P

      Like

    2. eruthaedur says:

      ok, on your first thing, I agree=) ..I don’t like perfect characters..because it feels like you can’t relate to them…like they are not human. But I think Anna is quite getting to that. Thalon obviously has a lack of judgment and good discernment, and who knows what else will show up. ;)

      Ok, well I guess I’m just curious…since you don’t believe in those sections of the Bible, in your opinion, the whole Bible cannot be correct, and therefore it cannot be the Word of God, because the word of God is infallible. ..if you don’t believe in the Bible, then, what do you believe in? ..that was kind of my train of logic that I’m curious about.

      ““and..I have a question, why was woman created? why did God create woman?”
      Again, if God created women to be subservient to men, then I cannot believe it. ”

      goof=P lol you didn’t answer the question;) I just asked why God created women.

      ““..where all through the beginning of time it was the heads of family’s, the men, who were called to lead?”
      Perhaps this is because pre-20th century society *as a whole* was dominated by men. Women, in most cases, were considered unable to take the sorts of leadership roles you describe. I am entirely grateful to be alive today, when such a view-point is starting to change. ”

      Yes, it was pre-20th century society. But God was personally directing how things should be run. Do you think that God was giving unfair/ wrong/ bad instructions? and, just saying;) I don’t believe women are incompetent.=P far from it. and I also don’t believe that women are unable to lead. *nod*

      ““And finally, ..I am wondering whether you think you do not need leadership or protection..just curious=)”
      I need protection from the laws of this country. I need a government that upholds my natural rights. If I was being robbed on the street, I should hope someone would come to my aid. I need leadership from parents, at the moment anyway. I need guidance from, and loving relationships with, friends, and maybe a spouse some day. These are things that all fallible human beings need, both men and women.
      What I DO NOT need is a society or worldview that tells me that I, because of my gender, innately require the protection and leadership of the opposite sex. That just doesn’t cut it.”

      lol=P I understand you now.
      So, there are times when you will be alone to fend for yourself. granted. and I believe you should be competent and trained to defend yourself. but, is it a bad idea for someone who is stronger and/or more skilled than you to defend you instead of you tangling with an invader where you are far more likely to come out of the scuffle seriously hurt than he would be? I guess.. my question is, if there was a fight, and the enemy was big, strong, and trained, and you had the option of either you going out and fighting him and hoping to come out alive, or a guy who was also bigger than you/stronger than you and perhaps trained, to go in and fight him on your behalf, which would you choose?

      Like

  21. Thoughtenchanted says:

    And one more thing, re: the verses below:

    1 Corinthians 14:34 – 35 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    1 Timothy 2:11 – 15 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

    I’m taking it that you do agree with these verses? But what about your female teachers? Do women at your church read scripture or pray or teach Sunday School? What about all the female evangelists, missionaries, Christian authors? Are they breaking God’s word?

    A double standard, no?

    Like

    1. eruthaedur says:

      and to this, grr. my pastor explained it REALLYYY well one Sunday..naturally the Sunday I wasn’t taking notes so I can’t remember what he said. So I believe the Bible to be the inherent and infallible word of God, but there are parts I do not understand, and I cannot remember how to explain this one either. how’s that for a lame answer;) =P

      Like

  22. Luke says:

    So here’s where it stands.
    Josiah=sexist
    Emily= feminist

    Sexist + Feminist = fail
    Please don’t slap me… it was more in jest. *evil grin*

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      Luke…you do realize I can both edit and delete your comments? AND mark them as spammed? …O_O Oo. I wonder what that does…*evil grin right back at ya* =P

      Like

    2. I think you exagerate both our positions.

      Like

      1. eruthaedur says:

        uhhhhhhh Luke..go look up sexist in the dictionary..lol…for that matter look up feminist too. you faileedddd at defining them…=P I am most certainly NOT a sexist..

        Like

  23. Luke says:

    I know i know… its rather strong for defining you two, but there’s a hint in both of you ;)

    Like

  24. eruthaedur says:

    lol did you look it up? =P

    Like

    1. Luke says:

      I knew what it meant before i posted it.

      Like

  25. Thoughtenchanted says:

    “..what do you believe in? ”
    Mostly, that is entirely my business and does not relate to the question at hand. :) I will say that I believe in equality of the sexes, as I think the ongoing discussion shows.

    “I just asked why God created women.”
    According to the Bible, as you have stated it, he created them as second in position to men, for their husbands, as helpmeets, etc. I have already stated that I do not agree with that view.

    I am still interested in hearing your response to my second post above, “But what about your female teachers? Do women at your church stand up and read scripture or pray or teach Sunday School? What about all the female evangelists, missionaries, Christian authors? Are they breaking God’s word? A double standard, no?”

    “my question is, if there was a fight, and the enemy was big, strong, and trained, and you had the option of either you going out and fighting him and hoping to come out alive, or a guy who was also bigger than you/stronger than you and perhaps trained, to go in and fight him on your behalf, which would you choose?”

    Okay, I thought when you were talking about protection/leadership you meant more than just physical. It is a fact of nature that men are bigger and in most cases stronger than women. I’m not that foolhardy–if there was a fight, of course I would want the person most likely to win to step up.

    When I said, “What I DO NOT need is a society or worldview that tells me that I, because of my gender, innately require the protection and leadership of the opposite sex,” I was primarily referring to guidance of a spiritual, moral, rule-making sort.

    Like

  26. eruthaedur says:

    lol!! sounds good to me=) Its just that people have made statements like that before..and I’ve been curious to see what they really believe. I don’t know if I’ve ever gotten a clear answer..so I was wondering about you =P and I too believe in the equality in value of the two genders.

    haha I know you don’t agree with it=P I wasn’t trying to hammer the point;) I was just wondering, if you do not agree with the biblical view, what is your view? what do YOU believe that God created women for?

    Alright..I shall try to answer your question. =P I have some very godly female teachers, and they are under their husband/father’s protection and leadership. One of my teachers is dedicated to teaching generations of highschool/college young people about the Biblical worldview and yet does so under her husband’s authority. She’s raising up younger generations in the knowledge of the Word of God. And at my church, our leadership, pastor, and elders are completely male as that is the way that the New Testament clearly directs that it should be done. As to women standing and reading Scripture and praying, our church (for the most part, there are plenty of exceptions from time to time) the father or the husband will stand WITH his wife/daughter in support of what she is saying. I don’t know what the Bible says about Christian authors…I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that..female I mean. and missionaries and evangelists? hmm. I don’t know. I know a lot go out as couples and that’s definitely a good way to go. some also go out in teams. but….to be honest I’m not sure about the singles. when not married, it is my interpretation of Scripture that the daughter is under the headship of her father, and it is her father’s duty to provide, protect, and look out for her until he either dies or relinquishes that duty to someone else like a husband. so yeah. does that answer your question?

    Like

  27. Thoughtenchanted says:

    “what do YOU believe that God created women for?”
    God created women to do whatever the heck they want. :) Within reason and justice, of course, just as for men. If a woman wants to run for president, go for it. If she wants to stay home and have babies, go for it. If she wants to get married but NOT have children, go for it.

    Sure, that answers my question. Still, if a man in my life felt like he was required to stand up next to me to lend authority or leadership to what I was saying, I would probably punch him. :)

    Josiah, try to imagine it from my perspective. What if YOU were told you would always be secondary in position, always have someone in authority over you? What if you were the one who ultimately had to submit your spouse in questions of finances or religion? What if your father or spouse had to stand up with you so you don’t “break the rules” when you read in church? What if you were told your place was in the home, not out in the workforce doing and leading? What if you were told that you were the one, because of your gender (the “weaker sex”), that needed the protecting? Doesn’t sound so great, right?

    Luckily for you, you don’t ever have to be unsettled by the above questions, as you belong to the male gender. I, however, do. And I think it stinks.

    Oh well, this has been an interesting discussion. :)

    Like

    1. eruthaedur says:

      oh goody goody you posted=P *goes to research more* *headdesk*=P ;)

      ““what do YOU believe that God created women for?”
      God created women to do whatever the heck they want. :) Within reason and justice, of course, just as for men. If a woman wants to run for president, go for it. If she wants to stay home and have babies, go for it. If she wants to get married but NOT have children, go for it. ”
      O_______O ….okk..=P that was not what I was expecting=P but..ok. =P
      but, the thing is, I don’t know if you understand the burden/duty that God has created men for. It isn’t to do whatever the heck they want.
      “Sure, that answers my question. Still, if a man in my life felt like he was required to stand up next to me to lend authority or leadership to what I was saying, I would probably punch him. :) ”
      goodness Emily lol it isn’t that we would feel REQUIRED to..gosh..its an HONOR. It’s a way of support, its showing that you respect, care, and are willing to step behind your wife to the very fullest. its oneness…..not individuality..that’s what marriage is all about..
      And yeah, I have from time to time tried to imagine it from your perspective. I see a gender God created that is capable of some of the greatest feats in the race of humankind. you say secondary in a demeaning way. Again, was Jesus LESS because He was in submission to His Father?? and good grief, men are NOT without authority. Men are directly responsible to God in their responsibilities to lead and head. Women have a covering of authority from man as well. I don’t know how I can explain this very well..and I can’t remember the references that I’m thinking of either-_- ..I think Paul is the one who talks about it.
      In the home you have the opportunity to create a HUGE difference in the world. You have the opportunity to raise the next GENERATION, which is more influential than practically anything out there. You have duty to raise the next Churchhill, the next Washington, the next Wallace, the next Moses…this country is going downhill because NOBODY is teaching the next generation God’s word! the women have left the house and given their raising responsibilities to daycares and government schools (which are obviously NOT going to contribute to the child’s godliness). If you think that women in the home do not have one of the greatest opportunities to create a tremendous difference in the world then…bluntly, that’s wrong..
      On top of that, there have been studies taken that the majority of men who have leading professions and enjoy great leadership positions out in the workplace, they would RATHER spend the time with their families and with their wife. the workplace doesn’t give complete fulfillment.
      About protecting, if I was the weaker gender, and I knew that somebody cared enough about me to sacrifice themselves to protect me, I would be honored, and cared for..and I would do my best to return that favor to them by supporting them and encouraging them as best as I could in the different ways that I could.

      Think about it from MY perspective for a moment. How would you like to live in a position where you are ALWAYS called to lead, you can’t ever sit around and let somebody ELSE make the terrible decision, you can’t rest under somebody else’s protection, you have to be the one to make all the decisions, make sure that those who depend on you are well cared for, and provided for. You had to be the one always out forging the way, …you had to be the one that everyone else always depended on. WITHOUT support. All the time knowing that the world hates you. All the time knowing that the women around you think you’re a sexist because you attempt to do your responsibility in leading and protecting. Ours is not the easy way, the fun way, or the lucky way. I know a whole ton of guys who would like to rest. especially because leading so hard and so long without support is SO completely draining. You do not have a bad, secondary, or unfulfilling spot Emily….it is only as you decide to make it. God created both roles to be completely fulfilling in Him.

      agreed..=)

      Like

  28. Netya Taethiel says:

    *steps timidly in* *raises hand* Just one thing… Emily, you asked about women praying/reading/teaching children. Realize that the first two have nothing to do with teaching. They are not putting women in a position of authority. Therefore, I have no problem with that.
    Teaching Sunday school… women aren’t to have spiritual authority over men. But children and other women? Older women are told to teach younger women. And parents are commanded over and over to train up their children. So… women teaching children (high schoolers = children in this instance) isn’t wrong. So I guess, your examples don’t really stand.

    *flees* ;)

    Like

  29. Luke says:

    “God created women to do whatever the heck they want. :)”
    I like this.
    Hehe this is really interesting. My opinions fall right in the middle of all this. But we won’t go there.
    My score card reads:
    Luke: 0
    Emily 3.5
    Josiah: 1.8
    Rebekah: 0
    Anna: -1
    XD

    Like

    1. eruthaedur says:

      ROFL Luke!! I love your score card=P =P
      haha how did Anna get a -1? =P

      Like

      1. AnnaEstelle says:

        I feel so lame now. I got a NEGATIVE score?? …*sigh* I’m gonna start editing your comments, luke. =P

        Like

  30. Luke says:

    Hehe…
    I’m amazing Justin hasn’t butted in here yet and pwned all of us.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      He can’t get on WordPress at his college. ;)

      Like

      1. Netya Taethiel says:

        Lol! No, Luke, if he could get on here, he would have just pwned you and Emily. *nods* ;)

        Like

  31. “but, the thing is, I don’t know if you understand the burden/duty that God has created men for. It isn’t to do whatever the heck they want.”

    Sorry, I suppose I got slightly carried away in my choice of language. :) That’s why I said “within reason and justice.” If a man is called to care for a wife and children, he should accept that “burden/duty” and do his absolute best. If he is called to/wants to do something else, he is totally free to do so. Same for women.

    “Think about it from MY perspective for a moment. How would you like to live in a position where you are ALWAYS called to lead, you can’t ever sit around and let somebody ELSE make the terrible decision, you can’t rest under somebody else’s protection, you have to be the one to make all the decisions, make sure that those who depend on you are well cared for, and provided for. You had to be the one always out forging the way, …you had to be the one that everyone else always depended on. ”

    I, personally, would soooo much rather have this than the female position I described above.

    Ok, I have a class in 5 minutes. I will write more later.

    Like

    1. eruthaedur says:

      lol its ok=P Men were created by God for distinct purposes and roles. if they started doing OTHER than the roles that God created them for, then they’re out of line right? I’m just saying that, just as the men have stepped out of line and not fulfilled their responsibilities, so have the women, and so the entire race of humans is suffering because the roles God designed are not being fulfilled because people are either too lazy (men) or not content (women) or a mix of the two.

      “I, personally, would soooo much rather have this than the female position I described above. ”
      ..doesn’t this seem a bit more like discontent vs. right or wrong? there’s times when I prefer not to lead and to be lazy and not fulfill my God given roles as well. I know that. I was asking more about your views of what is right and wrong, not what you would like or dislike=P lol

      have fun in class=)

      Like

  32. Netya Taethiel says:

    Emily, I think you’re missing something. Women have a position of great strength and influence. It is so very easy to do whatever the heck we want. And it is so hard to submit and defer! Which takes more strength, self-control, and character? The latter, most certainly.
    Women have an essential role. Men are called to lead and protect, to sacrifice and serve. Women are called to support and nurture, to sacrifice and serve. Both are roles of self-sacrifice, and both are extremely hard. Men have abused their position in so many ways over the years, I will grant you that. But so have women. Think of it… men need women. They need their love, they need their support. They need a home to come to. They need a haven where they can rest from their battles. It isn’t a worthless or demeaning role. It is the most beautiful and wonderful one in the world.

    In the book Caddie Woodlawn, the main character’s father says something to her that has always stuck in my mind. I love the quote. And the book itself is quite good, by the way. ;)

    “It’s a strange thing, but somehow we expect more of girls than of boys. It is the sisters and wives and mothers, you know, Caddie, who keep the world sweet and beautiful. What a rough world it would be if there were only men and boys in it, doing things in their rough way! A woman’s task is to teach them gentleness and courtesy and love and kindness. It’s a big task, too, Caddie — harder than cutting trees or building mills or damming rivers. It takes nerve and courage and patience, but good women have those things. They have them just as much as the men who build bridges and carve roads through the wilderness. A woman’s work is something fine and noble to grow up to, and it is just as important as a man’s. But no man could ever do it so well. I don’t want you to be the silly, affected person with fine clothes and manners whom folks sometimes call a lady. I want you to be a woman with a wise and understanding heart, healthy in body and honest in mind.”

    Just something to think about. :)

    Like

    1. eruthaedur says:

      you’re epic Rebekah=P that was a good post *nods* *likes it*=)

      Like

  33. Emily says:

    “So… women teaching children (high schoolers = children in this instance) isn’t wrong. So I guess, your examples don’t really stand.”
    Actually, I meant women teaching both adults and children, and leading a part of the church service (as in praying publically, or giving a reading, etc).
    So if a women has the right spirit and the knowledge to teach, she has to restrict that teaching to children and other women, simply because she is female? That doesn’t really make sense to me. And I have a question for you–where do you draw the line between male children and male adults? Is it ok for women to teach 17-year-olds? College students?

    “And it is so hard to submit and defer! Which takes more strength, self-control, and character? The latter, most certainly.”
    I never said I had strength, self-control, or character. :) I quote Hamlet:
    “I am myself indifferent honest, but yet I could accuse me of such things
    that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful,
    ambitious, with more offences at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in,
    imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such
    fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves all;
    believe none of us.”

    Perhaps, though, there is more than one kind of strength. To say that a woman is only strong when she “submits and defers,” because that is her “role” as determined by her gender….that is what I have problems with.

    As an interesting side note: my (very conservative) Constitution professor says that he thinks the increased role of women in conservative politics is what is going to save America–he says that the women running for office are the ones who are willing to question the status-quo, be radical (in a good way), take leadership positions without fearing what everyone else will think–as opposed to their male counterparts, who have been “groomed” for a position their entire lives, and are thus unwilling to question current trends for fear of losing it. Something to think about.

    I think we are about getting to the end of this debate….each side has an utterly different way of looking at the world, and I don’t think either of us are going to convince the other to share our position. :) I respect your view for what it is (really!), even if I disagree with it and would be miserable if I tried to live my life that way, and I hope you at least somewhat see my side of the story.

    Like

    1. Netya Taethiel says:

      Hm, see, I guess I don’t see women reading Scripture before a sermon, or leading worship, as teaching. Teaching is something different, taking authority. Praying or reading… that isn’t putting yourself in authority over someone else.
      As to teaching, I see no problem with women instructing others in most areas of life. As a matter of fact, I think it is a good idea. It is in spiritual matters that the restrictions come in. While I think that it is, for the majority of women, better to raise a family and build a home, some women are certainly not called to that. And some of the women I most greatly admire never married. Teaching is a wonderful occupation, and I have respect for all who do it. From what I can find, there is nothing wrong with teaching others. But the Scriptures put men in charge of spiritual teaching and leading. In the church, and in the home. And so… that is where you cannot reconcile. God gave those roles, and we will most display His glory when we follow His plan.

      “Perhaps, though, there is more than one kind of strength. To say that a woman is only strong when she “submits and defers,” because that is her “role” as determined by her gender….that is what I have problems with.”

      Again, I think there are areas where she must submit and defer, and other areas where she does not have to. ALL women are not subject to ALL men. Women are to submit to those men in authority over them, their father, husband, and shepherds (pastors/elders). And all men certainly ought to treat them with respect, as the “weaker vessels.” But you don’t have to do whatever a random guy on the street tells you to. That isn’t what the Bible verses mean. There is an order of authority, and within certain units, women are the helpmeets, not the leaders.

      As to politics…*ahem* I certainly agree that women can do a lot of good. Some of those men need to be shown a thing or two. And when the men won’t step up, the women are forced to. I don’t really agree with married women being in positions of leadership, simply because I think they have a higher duty which they will end up neglecting if they have another duty like that. But unmarried women… for the most part, I am fine with it. I don’t think it is ideal, but when there are no men… I’d vote for a good, upright woman any time rather than a pathetic man. I am not sure how I feel about a woman being president – if there are no other options, then I think I would not mind it. But I certainly do not think it is ideal.

      Anyway. I certainly agree with some of your points, Emily, though not to the extent that you take them :) I think we have to examine things through the Scriptures, and see where that takes us. I definitely think that women ought to have the right to vote and to think. They should not be trampled on by men. But… women are given a place in life. They were created specifically so that men would have helpmeets. It was not good for man to be alone. So God made women. Obviously, then it is not a demeaning role, but one of high value and blessing :)

      Like

  34. eruthaedur says:

    hmph. I was having fun. =P you ended it all=/ =P

    Like

  35. Luke says:

    Well… all i know is that penguins are SO DARN FLUFFY!!!!! <3

    Like

  36. Coke who doesn't like being diet says:

    Wow.
    Well that really put a damper on things.

    Like

    1. Emily says:

      Yeah, sorry guys. Maybe we can pick this up again some time. Unfortunately, I am in the end of the semester rush here, and pretty much only have time to sleep, eat, and write papers. :)

      Like

  37. Lisse says:

    This is reminding me suspiciously of the conversation you posted on Mahara where you and Rebekah tried to kidnap “Robin Hood”…. :)

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      *innocent smile* *halo* 0=)

      Like

  38. joctavianr says:

    Hmm . . .i wish I would have been here for this. I did not have time to read all of this. I merely skimmed it. Luke, thank you for the vote of confidence lol. Actually Rebekah, I would not have sided with Josiah on this though. I believe that both Josiah and Emily are approavhing this from the wrong extremes. And both are accepting ideas that I view as common misconceptions. I would have fallen between the two of them.This argument is no doubt long dead. So I am not reading all of it at the moment and not entering it. But I would like to say regarding the story that, Yes. Thalon drives me nuts. Basically, the character is all the parts of josiah that make us butt heads with only some of the better qualities that make me like and respect him lol =p But we shall see how he develops.

    Like

    1. AnnaEstelle says:

      ROFL!! Ouch…XD hahaha.
      It’s ok. Thalon ended up driving me insane too. -__________-
      *grins at Eru* …0=)

      Like

      1. joctavianr says:

        Lol. I like him more in the other chapters I have read so far.

        Like

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